Ford Broadcasts, 1965-1966: 12237637

Read from the scan by GLM-OCR; expect the odd misread word.

already stated, taken certain steps that will insure that we do not have external interference in our affairs, and particularly that we do not have external forces trying to undermine the government of our country. In addition to the people that you have referred to and the decisions that we have taken recently, you may already know that we have also had to take action against, for example, a British monthly magazine, some British journalists and other people from other countries, essentially because these people have tried to interfere in the internal affairs of our country to try to undermine the stability and solidarity of our government.

MR. ROWAN: Are you suggesting that your fear of Great Britain is as great as your fear of the Communist bloc in this regard?

MR. MBOYA: When we expel a British journalist it is not the British government that we are fighting, it is the individual's actions. In this case, of course, the friendship we have with the British government and the cooperation that exists between us of course is much greater than that which we have with, say, the Communist countries. But the position that I am trying to establish is—and I think this is what must be made quite clear—that Kenya stands by her declared policy of complete nonalignment and that the actions we take against a Communist journalist or a Communist diplomat do not in any way mean that we have departed from this policy of positive nonalignment. These actions are taken entirely on their merit.

MR. ROWAN: I believe it is a fact, however, that some members of your Party last fall were publicly calling for a break in diplomatic relations with Communist China, is that not correct?

MR. MBOYA: That is correct, yes.

MR. ROWAN: And that would tend to indicate to a reasonable observer that they feel more strongly about this than perhaps anybody else who might be accused of meddling in your internal affairs.

MR. MBOYA: It depends on the degree of meddling by different people. This does not destroy the basis of our policy for positive nonalignment. We are dealing with each situation as we find it.

MR. HOVEY: Mr. Mboya, this Communist threat or lack of Communist threat apart, aren't you facing a very serious problem in internal unity in Kenya when it is felt necessary to humiliate the Vice President in the way that he was when he wasn't even given one of the eight Vice Presidencies of the Party? Isn't this a very serious thing when an elder of the Luo

tribe-I believe it's the second biggest tribe in Kenyahas to be treated in this way?

MR. MBOYA: This is a very interesting point of view, or argument, to put: Is it a humiliation to call for democratic elections at a convention? Do we now have to understand that democracy means a guarantee of a certain office or position for certain individuals?

MR. HOVEY: No, but I am suggesting-

MR. MBOYA: The fact that a person is not elected is not humiliation by itself. The people coming to the convention have a definite right to determine at the convention whom they want to elect. I could have as easily been left out or any other person. That does not mean a humiliation.

Another thing which I would like to correct immediately is that Mr. Odinga or myself or any other person who wishes to stand for office in Kenya does so as an individual, not because he represents a tribe. Mr. Odinga does not represent the Luo tribe any more than I do. The whole concept of leadership by tribe is one which we have been fighting against for a long time and which we believe we have ultimately found a way out of.

MR. HOVEY: I know that you have been fighting very honorably against tribalism, and I know, too, many of my African friends think we exaggerate tribalism in examining the problems of the new Africa. But aren't you really headed for a serious tribal situation if Mr. Odinga is involved in this reported move to form a new party with Mr. Ngei, I believe he is an Kamba, and I believe the Luos and the Kambas together would outnumber the Kikuyus in your country, isn't that right?

MR. MBOYA: I saw this kind of reasoning in The New York Times when I arrived here in an article that I read the other day published in The New York Times the other day.

I want to make it quite clear that this is the most misleading statement that I have read.

Firstly, because it has no truth whatsoever. Mr. Ngei has publicly announced that he has nothing to do with the proposed "new" party, although in The New York Times they report him as supporting the new party.

And, secondly, even if Mr. Odinga and Mr. Ngei were to join the new party, that does not mean that the Wakamba people and the Luo people have joined the Ngei party because in the present government there is still a majority of Luo leaders in the government and there is still a majority of Wakamba leaders in the government.

This idea that some leaders in Kenya represent a tribe and can force that tribe to support this or that group is entirely false and misleading.