(Estimated Pub Date) the Challenge of Ethnic Conflict to National and International Order in the 1990S: Geographic Perspectives- October 1995

Approved for Release: 2018/06/01 C00123268
Summary of Discussion
General Discussion
DR. WIXMAN: I would like to make two comments.
First, I think that we need to keep in mind that our
analysis is colored_by our own Anglo-American or
Westem ethnic perspective and that it affects the way
in which we perceive the rest ofthe world geopoliti-
cally. Second, with regard to the hierarchical context
that Dr. Gladney discussed, I think one has to recog-
nize that context is key to our understanding on the
intemational and political level as well. When people
ask someone if they are Uzbek, the answer is yes.
When they ask them if they are Central Asian, the-
answer is yes. When they ask them if they are Muslim,
the answer is yes. It all depends on the set of'circum-
stances, the context. In one case, these groups will
fight each other; and in another, they will fight
together against the “outsider.” I think one of the
problems in making foreign policy is that often we
focus on the local level and miss the bigger picture.
One issue that we need to take into account when
making foreign policy is that, although two groups
may hate each other, if we get involved, they may be
drawn together against us.
DR. GLADNEY: Yes, the old proverb that I referred
to earlier, “You and I against each other, you and me
against my brother, my brother and I against our cous-
ins, our cousins and I against you,” articulates such a
hierarchy. I am very uncomfortable with this whole
discourse on tribalism. The notion of the tribe was
basically refuted 60 years ago. Now, suddenly, it is
back. A simplistic interpretation of the notion can lead
to misunderstanding. For example, many assume that
the Soviet Union somehow held back these ethnic ten-
sions, and now, with the Soviets out, these tensions
have bubbled to the surface. In fact, in many cases——
such as the Tajik versus the Uzbek or the Uzbek ver-
sus the Uighur-—the Soviets created the divisions and
ethnic conflicts between groups who are essentially
very similar peoples. Scholars and analysts need to
look at the historical processes and historical contin-
gencies. As anthropologists, we are always looking in
terms of context-,-when, where, why, and how-—and
are not drawing these broad generalities.
QUESTION: Would you comment on the issues of the
potential for the rise of Southern Chinese nationalism?
DR. GLADNEY: There is the potential for an enor-
mous shift of focus in terms of our understanding of
China as I-long Kong becomes the issue of the late
1990s. I am not saying Cantonese separatism is going
to pull China apart, but I am saying that a strong feel-
ing of difference exists in the south, and the politics of
difference are becoming very important for China’s
domestic future. We have tended to focus on border
minorities, yet, when I travel in China, I find that the
Chinese are not worried about the Tibetans or
Uighur—-they are concerned that the Cantonese are
getting rich and that they can buy their country three
times over, and they are worried about those people
who are poor and who keep coming into our city tak-
ing all their jobs—-this whole issue of floating popula-
tion. The government can no longer say, “I-Iey, keep
these differences at bay because we have the Soviets,
the Americans, or the Japanese to worry about." I pre-
dict that these local level conflicts will become more
important.
QUESTION: I’m puzzled by two seemingly contra-
dictory trends in China. One is an increased economy
and intemational trade, which appears to imply peace-
ful pursuits, and the other is an increased military,
including substantial offensive capabilities. How do
these "fit together‘?
DR. GLADNEY: It is a very complex situation, and, in
my opinion, the whole issue has to be framed in terms
of this post-Cold War society. China no longer sees
itself in opposition to the Soviets. It is interested much
more in microlevel issues. The economic aspects of
this drive a lot of these issues, particularly China’s rela-
tionship with the Middle East in terms of exporting
military hardware. But I think also the issue is a feeling
of internal insecurity. During the Tiananmen Square
incident, there was a rumor that the military was not
obeying the leadership’s orders to crack down on pro-
testers. Since then, and I referred to this in my paper,
the government has reorganized the military, fired gen-
erals, and tried to put more loyal people in their places.
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Approved for Release: 2018/06/01 C00123268